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@BC

It is a crime that if a doctor has resonable doubt that a child is in danger but not report to CAS. In this case, I think no one would challege if I said the mother has mental issues.

And no one can predict how bad or how quick her mental conditions deteroriate. It is not frequent; however, it is not unheard in the past that mother who has mental problem would kill herself togther with her children.

As "一家四口" suggested, "她自己需要看医生". But in Canada, except under very extreme condition, no one can force her to see a doctor, no even her husband.

And the purpose of CAS is to protect children who do not know how to protect themselves. Without CAS and the hospital, who would say the outcome cannot be worse.

I think the lesson we should learn from this disaster is to care people around us. And we should always encourage people who has problem to seek professional support. They may not be the best or giving ideal solutions but they are well trained and have access to a lot of resources that most of us don't have.
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Replies, comments and Discussions:

  • 枫下茶话 / 社会 / 请大家不要互相指责了,这里的多数人都是好心助人,或有言辞不当或方法不妥的地方,但这不是造成那个妈妈死亡的直接原因,说别人是刽子手的朋友太偏激了。大致看了一下死者的所有帖子,以下是我的想法,如有不当,请理性批评。
    本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛现在从她所发的帖子和最后举动来看,她确实有精神方面的疾病,我们不是医生,没有那么敏锐的感觉,甚至我们单个人的人生经验也不够丰富,所以当初大家的反应各不相同,就有了不同的声音。当时多数朋友都是热心地劝解她、给她出主意,也有部分人认为她大概是胡闹或者挖了个坑,所以也有调侃和嘲讽。但这里毕竟是网络,如果只是因为别人说了不妥当的话或者用了你认为不妥当的方式就把死因归到人家头上甚至直指别人是刽子手,那你发出这种埋怨时有没有考虑到你对被你埋怨的人造成的心理压力远大于对方当初对死者造成的影响呢?现在被埋怨的人不会去走死者选择的路是因为自己坚强、心理也正常,而不是因为被伤害的少。
    从她的帖子看,她当时只是一直在表达自己的感受、想法,并没有认真地听取别人的回答和建议,她要求别人做的比如打电话之类的也都不是有效的方法。其实从她带孩子“看了几家医院的医生都说没事,但她却认为孩子流鼻血是因为肺部出血,马上就有死亡危险,一周之内坚持每天都去不同医院看急诊,”可以看出她在CAS带走孩子前已经非常偏执了,再从她后来的活动及死亡时间看,死因应该是她的病。
    从很多例证里看CAS确实做了不少讨厌甚至缺德的事,但在此事上目前还看不出有什么不对。朋友认识的一位法官的妻子就因精神有异(不知是否产后忧郁症)抱着幼儿从楼上跳下,母子双亡。如果CAS不带走孩子,谁又能保证类似的事不会发生在死者身上呢?CAS的责任是保护孩子不受伤害,而母亲的病不在它的管辖范畴中,所以我们不能因为母亲的死亡而去指责它。
    现在我们知道悲剧是发生在一个对孩子充满爱心又受尽磨难的妈妈身上,我相信这里有很多朋友已经在痛心的同时自我反思。从这个悲剧上我们得到了教训和经验,应该思考的是如果再遇到类似的情况应该怎样及时、有效地去帮助,而不是事后互相指责。我们华人社区需要的是团结、友爱、互助,大家都扔掉爱内讧的恶习吧!更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
    • 她的悲剧,不是某个网友的几句话就能造成的.她心里一直觉得自己是对的,很偏执,她所要求的帮助,是要大家帮她向CAS施加压力,痛斥医院的不作为,而不是很多朋友提出的帮助--她自己需要看医生.她对自己的疾病没有认识,自我为中心.
      • 很多有心理问题的人,不是本身自己的问题,其实是外界的压力,没有很多人能都不被外界的改变而不受影响的,有人支持她,帮助她,也不至于走向那一步,CAS和医院当然是直接原因!
        • It is a crime that if a doctor has resonable doubt that a child is in danger but not report to CAS. In this case, I think no one would challege if I said the mother has mental issues.
          And no one can predict how bad or how quick her mental conditions deteroriate. It is not frequent; however, it is not unheard in the past that mother who has mental problem would kill herself togther with her children.

          As "一家四口" suggested, "她自己需要看医生". But in Canada, except under very extreme condition, no one can force her to see a doctor, no even her husband.

          And the purpose of CAS is to protect children who do not know how to protect themselves. Without CAS and the hospital, who would say the outcome cannot be worse.

          I think the lesson we should learn from this disaster is to care people around us. And we should always encourage people who has problem to seek professional support. They may not be the best or giving ideal solutions but they are well trained and have access to a lot of resources that most of us don't have.
          • well said, support!
            • Include myself, most Chinese familes do not have the knowledge and understanding to handle 心理问题. I don't know how but if someone can arrange any arrange any seminar to educate us, I would be the first to attend.
              • 绝大部分中国人,觉得心理问题,只要有人倾诉谈心就能解决,所以国内有党支部书记,居委会老大妈,或是同事中的知心大姐,而不知道这种病也是要看医生,吃药的.
                • And this is why I suggested someone, somehow should arrange some kind of seminar to educate us. 1 disaster is too much.
                  I don't want to point finger to anyone, hospitals, CAS.... How can we avoid future disaster is more importnat. I hope someone with the right background can come forward and arrange this seminar and notify Chinese community.
                • 是! 很多事情不是说靠医生就能解决的,事实上有很多人忌医的,特别是心理医生,有哪个精神病人是认为自己有病,更何况有很多人明知道自己有问题,但是就是改变不了
                  • You are right, 心理医生 and their medicine is not always the solution; especially, they have to agree to see doctor first. So family and community support are also very important.
                    And this is why I suggest our community must be educated to help those who we love! I have family member who has mental problem and the first step was the most difficult one - tell her she has a problem.

                    Unlike most sickness, mental illness is not that easily recognized. A lot of us (I defintely have) may have angy managemnet issues but how do we draw the line. You definitely don't want to wait until you kill the rest of your family before you go to see doctor. I am not an expert and I really think if we learn any lesson from this disaster if to educate ourselves.
          • 这正是这个制度的问题所在,我哪天成了医生我也可以doubt,我就可以多让CAS带小孩了吗? CAS 在这件事又一次扮演了不光彩的角色,你看看他们到底做了些什么?多看医生这个也很正常,这里的医生有多少个你能信任呢?人应该想开点,不要和这些愚蠢的制度一般见识。
            • Yes, you may be right! But do we know how the mother behaved in the hospital? I don't know. Instead of guessing or speculating, we should ask our government to launch a full investigation.
              本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛Not just find out who was responsible but try to learn from this disaster and don't make the same mistake again. Did the doctor make a wrong judgement? Could CAS handle it better? Do our Chinese community have enough support to those who have mental health issue?

              But until we see the full picture, is it fair to point finger? If you were the one who work for CAS and picked up the baby, how do you feel if you already follow the policy and procedure. Of course, you can argue the policy and procedure was not appropriate for this particular case. But can we judge them when we may only see 5% of the truth?

              For those who particiated in this discussion, I urge you to email your MPP or local councillor to request a full investigation into this case. You can even just write in Chinese, they would find someone to translate. The key is volume; if they receive enough email / phone call, then they would do something. Canada is a democratic country and the politicans need your vote!

              And until we learn the truth, we should not blame anyone.更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
    • Rolia offers a platform that we can help each others; however, we have to know our limits. After all, most of us are not lawyer, accountants, doctor, social workers.......
      Instead of just offering our personal opinions, we should also direct our lovely fellows to the right resources who have professional knowledge to support and help.

      Of course, you may argue even professional people can be wrong but as a layman we may have a bigger chance to go wrong. We can give second opinion but we should always refer to professional people or in this case, encourge her and her family to seek professional supports.

      I have family member who has mental challenge and I don't often agree with what the doctor suggested. But I don' t want to take the risk; so I have to disucss with the doctor more frequently to bring up my concern. But he is the final decision maker.
    • 关于CAS,我想没有人否认CAS对少数极端案例有介入必要,问题是CAS的做法太简单粗暴,牵涉面太广,到了“宁可错杀一千,不可放走一个”的地步。就好象,抑郁症可能导致极少数人自杀,所以我们赋予精神科医生可以把所有诊断为抑郁症
      都绑在医院的病床上治疗的权利,这样就100%的杜绝了他们自杀的可能。但这样做是不是太不人道了?
      • 这里的文化不懂找问题产生的直接原因,以及事情发生的客观事实!他们喜欢把问题很简单一刀切,就像修车读数据,看病读指标。
        • 那是CAS. 我猜CAS是按收到的小孩从政府拿到经费,所以他们会努力收更多小孩,却不费心去好好照顾那些小孩
          • 不要糊乱下妄语,是不负责的行为;此类推测的言论已经加剧了她的病情.谨望吸取教训
    • 应该说,在这事上,没有一个网友是存心要害人的,不同的是方式不同,语气和态度不同。在这次事件中,CAS的介入还是很有必要的。明明小孩没病,母亲却带他到处看病,乱吃药,这对孩子的确是很危险的
      • 幸好你不是CAS的,要不还不知有多少孩子被带走!
    • CAS简单粗暴处理问题的方式是rolia网友loveblue之死的直接诱因。对于一个产后忧郁的母亲来说有什么会比夺走她亲生儿子更痛苦的事情?如果CAS不强行进入,儿子母亲是否一定会出现意外?从产后忧郁的母亲身边抢走孩子,而对有产后忧郁的母亲没有任何措施,是否合理?
      • 你的意思是再成立一个类似CAS的机构,把有产后忧郁的母亲们也给强行带走?
        • 应该是成立一个, 能够在现实生活中, 互相联系, 互相帮助的集体。 在这里发帖时, 如果想找人倾诉, 需要人能够在现实生活中见面。 可能更像学习小组吧(定期见面, 互诉衷肠, 还有互相鼓励。)。
        • 这个case里面需要治疗的是母亲,强行带走孩子只会加重母亲的病。CAS只知道要带走孩子,却不考虑孩子有危险的原因是什么。如果孩子母亲的症状一直持续下去,孩子是不是一直回不了家?CAS是不是只要孩子没危险就算完成任务?那样的话为什么不可以让孩子的亲戚朋友来看孩子?
          为什么非要采取强行带走的方式?
          • 还有,很关键的一点:孩子有正常的爸爸!为什么CAS没有联系孩子爸爸就强行带走孩子!!
            • 你怎么知道没有联系爸爸?属实么?
              • 认识死者的朋友在网上说的,她早就提出了这个质疑。我是听了她的质疑才认为这的确要质疑。
                • 哦原来是网上朋友
                  • 死者的丈夫刚才亲口说了这是他对CAS最关键的质疑。
      • CAS带走孩子之前,bluelove的抑郁症没有那么严重。她带着孩子到处看医生,正如她丈夫说的:在国内对孩子的病不放心都是多看几个医生,所以连她丈夫,这个正常人也没有太在意不停看医生这个事情。
        • 我曾经带生病的孩子去看了walkin,回家后又收到儿科医生的留言回复可以去看儿科医生的预约时间,于是在当天下午带孩子去看了儿科医生。要说心态的确是存在想要听听不同的医生诊断的结果是否一致的心态。要是被报告CAS,把我孩子抢走,我不敢想象,也许也会疯掉。
        • 如果CAS不强行进入,儿子母亲是否一定会出现意外? 因为她会用他的方法给没有病(但她却认为儿子以病入膏肓), 甚至可能和小孩一同安乐死(许多人自杀的同时还杀了子女-美其名曰怕小孩自己受苦)。。。到了那时如何处理?
          • 方法很重要, 如果CAS在已经确定母亲有忧郁症的情况下, 应采取缓和方法来, 让母亲先安稳下来,比如安慰母亲不要着急,同时安排让母亲满意的医疗环境来照顾孩子并在事实上分开和子女单独同处,并通知父亲实际情况.这样就不会激化母亲病症, 显然CAS做法太过强硬. 的确是诱因
        • 在她自杀的时候, 小孩已经还给了他们, 只不过签了协议不让她单独和两个小孩在一起, 就是防止她有幻觉伤害小孩; 她只所以自杀可能是她自己知道自己的病情到了可以伤害家人的地步。。。
          • 她的遗书是这么说的么?:她只所以自杀可能是她自己知道自己的病情到了可以伤害家人的地步。。。
          • CAS认为只要不让她单独和孩子相处就能够把孩子还回去,为什么第一时间里不联系孩子的爸爸?
            • 理解你很愤怒。但是不了解的事就不好随便问责。1 什么是第一时间?这不是你可以认定的。2 你怎么知道没有联系? 3 如何联系孩子的父亲?是不是打个电话,电话那边说是孩子的父亲就是孩子的父亲?
        • 外人都觉得她有些不正常,他丈夫却没有,还让她单独看小孩,这也许恰恰许被CAS看成NEGELECT?
          • 她先生肯定是失职的. 回加拿大当天晚上自杀. 那天晚上发生点啥事情? 争吵?
            • "王妻子於5月30日返回多倫多,但晚上都不敢回家,一直在朋友家寄宿。6月1日才返回家中" - from Singtao.ca
              Her husband has to take care the kids (one has 自閉症) and need to go to work. His hands are full and he may not have the knowledge to understand his wives' mental health issues. Please leave him alone.
              • I understand him. But what you said only proves he does need help. That's why somebody (cas in this case) stepped in
                • There is social worker already involved in his family, to take care his elder son who has autism. Doctor in hospital already noticed she was not stable and CAS was later involved when they were told she might not be well enough take care her children.
                  My only concern is with all these professional people, no one actually saw the coming of this disaster. I am actually on the other end of the spectrum and wonder if the hosptial should Involuntarily admit her to hospital. Her husband may not have the knowledge and experience to justiy if she is in dangerous. Or her medical situation might deteroriate rapidly over her last week.
                  • I agree. I feel sorry for this family, especially for the mother of the two children, I don't think CAS should be blamed on this case. I also wonder why the hospital didn't try to help her since they knew she was not well.
                    Anyhow, nothing else I can say because I don't know what happened.
                    • CAS has a very simple mandate - to protect children
                      this time they received a call from a very trustworthy source - a qualified doctor from hospital. They have to take all necessary actions to protect the children and when they found out the father is capable to take care the children, they released the children on condition the mother could not stay with the children alone. And they did their job - to protect the children.

                      Who should take care the mother? hosptial? husband? Legally, none! Ethetically, both?
                    • Well said --"nothing else I can say because I don't know what happened."
            • 你什么意思啊?凭空猜测,是能置人于死地的;网络也能杀人,请说话前想想可能的后果
    • 大家都吸取教训吧
    • 发此帖目的是希望大家理性地从此悲剧中吸取教训,寻求遇到类似问题的正确解决方法,如果还有很多朋友执着于声讨CAS的话,那位可怜的妈妈真是白死了。请大家仔细看看hkchan的发言吧,我觉得他/她讲的中肯、全面,而且又有这方面的经历。
      本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛我认为CAS在本案中的做为目前可以说无可指责。当医生发现妈妈精神有异(事实说明医生判断正确)不适合带孩子时,自然要通知CAS,这是他们的责任;而CAS的责任是保护未成年儿童免收伤害,在接到通知后第一时间要做的当然是保护孩子,从报道中可以看出他们带走孩子后通知了孩子的父亲,在父亲保证不让母亲单独接触孩子的条件下送回了孩子。当然患病的母亲也应得到及时的治疗,但这责任不在CAS,我觉得责任在父亲。父亲可能当时没有意识到问题的严重性,加上我们华人内心对自己或家人可能有精神障碍的排斥,也许还有很多其他难处——想象他当时的处境吧,所以没有让妈妈得到及时、恰当的治疗。设身处地的想想,如果我们自己处在那种情况下,很可能也不忍心认为相濡以沫多年的爱妻、两个孩子的母亲是精神病、不忍心把她送去可能要吃大量镇静药甚至遭捆绑(印象中精神病院的样子)的地方,我想这应该是这个父亲现在懊悔的吧。所以我们的教训应该是不要只以个人的主管判断为行为依据,如果能有专业人士指导一定要虚心听取,以避免悲剧再发生。
      那些认为CAS或医生做的不够全面、不够更人性化的朋友,我们可以通过各种渠道提建议督促其改善,但游戏规则已定,而且我们认为此游戏规则比我们原来环境中的要先进(不然我们干嘛要呆在这里?),在改进它之前我们只能遵守它,否则会碰得头破血流。更多精彩文章及讨论,请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
      • 爸爸要照顾一个自闭症的老大,20多个月的老二,精神状态不好的妻子,还要上班养家.请大家不要对他妄下猜想了.最心疼BLUELOVE的人莫过与他的亲人,换做我们也不一定做得好
      • 你的很多意见还是很中肯的
        • 谢谢!但看了那位父亲在另一边的话,我不想再说什么了。
          • what 另一边?
              • 看了死者丈夫的回帖,他对CAS的质疑,也正是rolia大部分人质疑的。CAS强行夺走孩子的行为的确是导致有产后忧郁母亲死亡的直接原因。产后忧郁症是很普遍的存在,只不过有长有短轻重不一。这位母亲的表现就是过于关注儿子(这和她长子的病有关),她不应该受到CAS的这种处理。
              • 长期和病人打交道,是件不容易的事情.而且不知道哪天没在意病人就会发生意外.事真如此,也不代表他不爱护老婆.他是受害人,很可怜.希望他振作精神照顾好孩子们
      • CAS在处理具体方法为何不能从温和的手法上来"善意的欺骗"一下母亲,比如就安排一个名义上的医院来让母亲安心? 同时从事实上暂时隔离母亲和孩子单独相处, 同时安慰母亲并让其情绪稳定? 偏要用强硬的方法? 一件事情是否做对不但要理由正当, 还有方法妥当, 缺一不可.
        所以无论CAS在理由上如何充分, 由于其不当的强硬粗暴的行为, 直接导致了有忧郁症的母亲病情在短时间内迅速加重, 导致无法挽回的后果. 这种行为就是很多正常的母亲, 也承受不了, 何况是一个有忧郁症的人. 这是CAS方面要考虑的缺失. 要说CAS无可指责, 我看类似悲剧会继续重演
        • 您说的温和手法需要更多的人力物力,可能会在未来实现,也就是我说的“提建议督促其改善”的地方;在条件不具备的情况下CAS当然先顾孩子,这是他们的责任,也是游戏规则。送母亲就医是其丈夫(也许还有其他医生或社工)的责任,
          CAS带走孩子后一个多月(期间又送回了孩子)母亲死亡,期间是否得到应有的治疗?这个问题一直不愿问那位父亲,是不想增加他的自责。
          如果不学会让自己怎样适合这里的游戏规则,一味要求社会负责照顾好自己,这才是悲剧会重演的根本可能。
          • 做出严重刺激病人的粗暴行为后,再来指责病人家属没有照顾好病人?在没有丈夫同意的情况下,抢走孩子,再要求丈夫一方面照顾好忧郁的妻子,一方面照顾好自闭的长子,还要和CAS的人低三下四恳求还回幼子?现在把责任全推在丈夫身上,你们CAS还有人性吗?
          • 这个不是未来可能的问题,如果由于具体执行非人性化,直接造成家庭悲剧即成现实.如果在一个处处标称以生命为重的社会机构如果简单的归于"游戏规则"而直接照成家庭破裂,生命凋零的机构本身的组成就要被人质疑.同时为其辩解的人的目的也很让人怀疑.
          • 1.我和CAS没有任何关系,只是阐述我的观点。2.不互相指责是我的初衷,更不想在此刻指责那位丈夫,如果不小心做了,那只是在回答问题时不得已,抱歉。3.楼上二位,如果你们又提的问题在我前面的话里找不到答案,那你们真难倒我了,恕我不答了。
            • 指责不是目的,是为了类似悲剧不要再重演而重新审视各个环节有无过失.CAS在这里当然是很值得大家讨论的,因为他们的行为直接导致悲剧的产生,所以很多人引用"游戏规则","秉公执法"就好象没有责任了反而造成更大的反感.
      • CAS 只是一个官僚机构。对于一个家庭来讲,他们可以说有着生杀予夺的权利,却没有ACCOUNTABILITY. 口口声声以孩子利益为重,却办事简单粗暴,毫不顾及分裂一个家庭对所有人的极大伤害,对孩子的长远甚至永久的伤害。
        在许多情况下,把孩子从父母身边强行带走对孩子造成的伤害,尤其年岁较小的孩子,要比要解决的事情本身还要严重。但是孩子在家庭出了事,或者仅是认为会出事,家长就是万恶不赦,在cas 看管下出了事则没人负责。cas 里有多少孩子出问题,自杀?前不久多伦多星报有一篇报道,cas 负责的孩子自杀率非常高。这就是孩子离开家庭的代价。然而,以孩子利益为宗旨的CAS却百般阻挠对自杀率的公布和调查。说到底,这是一个权力极大却没有任何ACCOUNTABILITY的官僚机构。这不是游戏规则的问题,而是不负责任的行为。cas 政策是由基层的工作人员执行的。他们花了多少时间来了解这个孩子和这个家庭呢?当事关一个孩子和一个母亲命运的时候,他们做到最大努力了吗?难道不应该多考虑一下后果吗?
    • 深感震惊!逝者安息,生者节哀!
    • Please do not blame her family; especially her husband. He already has a very tough time in front of him. He needs all our supports, not out finger in his back!
      And the last thing that anyone of us never want to see is anothr suicide.

      I know it is also a difficult time for our system administrator, but I would greatly appreciate it if you can delete any discussion thread who blame her family.

      And as a good Rolian, we should help our administrator and alert him (or her) any message that is offensive to her family.

      It is a very tough time for her family, please share your support!

      We are a big family!
      • "吐沫星子杀死人", 看看这坛子上多少人听风就是雨,肆意揣测,妄下断语,极尽能事,惟恐天下不乱.悲哀啊!生活中有了这样的"朋友"该是多可怕的一件事!
        如果某些同志在生活中还较为谨慎,也请在论坛中自重吧!
        • 肆意揣测,妄下断语 - can't agree more 人言可畏!
      • Agree with you. 那位父亲正处在最艰难的时期,我们中任何人都不应该再给他雪上加霜了,如果有时间精力和同情心,就伸出援助之手。对事实不清楚的地方,不要在这里妄加猜测,我们不要没救了妈妈,现在又去害爸爸。那些穿了马甲说话的朋友,如果你是那个家庭的朋友,
        又有异议的话,最好寻求别的渠道,人言真的能杀人或让人生不如死的。
        为减少聒噪,这是我就这件事最后一次发言。