some answers. -hkchan(*) @BC省华人论坛:BC省枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum of BC

枫下茶话 / 社会 / 跟同事聊起这个家庭的不幸，同事说没有听说(她也住mississauga) 她说应该让更多的人知道，媒体介入；就像这里一些人建议的，我们应该给mp,相关媒体写信，一个case引起，不能再有类似的悲剧发生。即便只局限于我们说知道的一点经过实事，但是结果是确实的 -liuycc(影子); 2009-6-15 (#5343662@0)

知道得越多，越感觉这中间的悲剧色彩unspeakable。投鼠忌器，我都不知道在给MPP的信里是否可以使用逝者的姓名。 -oldyou(); 2009-6-15 (#5343701@0)

我到现在也只知道她的网名，不过这个人存在过，这个事情发生过，如果他们引起重视，想要了解更多，一定能找得到 -liuycc(影子); 2009-6-16 (#5347588@0)

她的大儿子四岁了，小的也快两岁。那么长时间里一个人带两个孩子，何曾威胁过他们的安全？CAS下结论的时候，有没有无视这一基本事实？ -oldyou(); 2009-6-15 (#5344493@0)

She could handle them in the past, doesn't mean she was not a threat to the baby when CAS worker made such decision. We didn't know her behavior when CAS worker decided to take away the baby. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5344505@0)

咋天跟朋友聊起这事, 她还认为这个CAS就是JERRY SRINGER那里的那种黑白准备的, 说是如果CAS里有一部分有中国文化, 了解中国人对孩子的情结的人会好一点----不过上来看了你的贴子, 发现里面如果有你这样的中国人也是白扯 -mickeyh(mickey); 2009-6-15 (#5344549@0)

So you think it is ok to give your kids whatever drug. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-6-15 (#5344552@0)

你在钻牛角, 你非要钻的话, 我可以说: 什么也比逼死人家妈妈强 -mickeyh(mickey); 2009-6-15 (#5344559@0)

我现在有点明白了，那些说 CAS is an evil 的人可能大部分都是因为孩子的事与直接或者间接与CAS打过交道的人。我们需要的是 the balanced information。我们需要考虑的是CAS在这件事到底做错了吗？我指的是法律上的。 -ellesmeer(明天可能是晴天); 2009-6-15 (#5344604@0)
Why? If the mom killed the kid by given her drugs, she will commit suicide too. Then two deaths. Right now only one death. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-6-15 (#5344615@0)

她可以说你的推断建立在假设上而假设（小孩被亲母害死）永不会出现，你没什么可反驳的，因为这个假设永不能被证实了。此事件许多人表现的太情绪化。 -yusheng(拜月); 2009-6-15 (#5344623@0)

事实上妈妈死了, 而现在有人在拼命推脱责任, 而且那么”PROFESSIONAL” 的工作除了死了一个人没人看到一点效果 -mickeyh(mickey); 2009-6-15 (#5344641@0)

I am not 拼命推脱责任. I have no vested interested on CAS. I just 拼命 look for the truth for the family. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5344841@0)

嘿. 小伙子. 你说这种话不怕报应吗? -mamimami(mamimami); 2009-6-15 (#5344649@0)

他这样一假设, 大家就都死了, 他也好意思……这就是CAS的水平吗?如果以这种假设来行动, 说它是EVIL真没什么不准确 -mickeyh(mickey); 2009-6-15 (#5344653@0)

Does Smartiecat represent CAS? Do I represent CAS? All I suggested was not to jump to conclusion! -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5344844@0)

I see no wrongdoing by CAS. CAS is set up to protect the children only. Clearly this mom is harming the children (but believing her kids are sick and wanna give her drugs). -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-6-15 {196} (#5344792@0)
CAS does not need to care about the mom since this agency is not designed to do so. It is an agency which set up just to protect the kids.

What happened was tragic but CAS did the right thing.

And CAS already made a medical appointment for the mother but somehow she went to England instead. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5344863@0)

能做出这样的假设说明你也不同程度地有些问题哦. -7755(daysbeingwithmom); 2009-6-16 (#5345924@0)

En ! -babyface(★春歌醉★春花飞★); 2009-6-15 (#5344744@0)

作为中国人，我不希望自己被加拿大政府特殊对待，不管是好意还是歹意。我觉得如果有证据cas对中国家庭特别的严厉，可以说一说；如果要求cas按照所谓中国国情对中国家庭从宽，假如cas真的这么做了，反而是一种歧视。 -baalinca(三碗不过冈十点不上网); 2009-6-15 (#5344706@0)

对待一个病人是很细微的事情, 这时候也扯上”平等”, 那只好看她跳楼了 -mickeyh(mickey); 2009-6-15 (#5344760@0)

如果cas对中国家庭采用宽松一点的标准，这本身未必是好事。就算是好事是特权，你要求了这个特权，就不能拒绝别人要求特权，没有谁希望看到其他人种在加拿大有自己的特权的。 -baalinca(三碗不过冈十点不上网); 2009-6-15 (#5344797@0)
So you do admit that she is sick. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-6-15 (#5344798@0)

+1 -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5344846@0)

if 中国文化 includes making judgement without undertsand the full picture, then you are quite right, I would not bring in this part of 中国文化 into any organization. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 {1425} (#5344837@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛And you mind to tell me what's wrong with my 贴子. I used to be able to play football from 9 am to 9 pm, and I don't think I can play for more than 10 minutes. What I (or anyone) used to be able to do has nothing to do with our current ability. Isn't it logical?

BTW, do you know anyone who has serious mental illness? I do and one of them is even my very close relative. They can be very normal for most of the time but their conditions can turn very bad (attacking people) in a very short period of time. I also know a little girl who just graduated for a couple years and lost her job for 6+ months. She was very depressed and refused to go outside her room. Her month tried to comfort her one night after diner. She told her daugthe that it would be OK even she couldn't find a job; her parenets were still working and there was no financial pressure at all. And without any notice nor argument; her daugther jumped out from her house and killed herself. This case was quite extreme becuase in most cases, the victims' family would notice some abnormal behaviours. My friend who is a medical professor who do in R&D on suicide, told me a lot of suicide could be prevented. That one was very exceptional.

If you don't agree with what I said, why don't you ask your MPP and Minsiter of Children to launch a public inquiry. Once they gather all evidence, you can come back and tell me I was wrong!更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net
BTW, CAS has Chinese workers as well. My friend's daugther told her teacher that her mother punished her with a stick. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 {337} (#5344860@0)
A Chinese CAS worker visited her right at night. My friend was OK; they spend the whole evening talking about education, child discipline and Canadian value.

The Chinese CAS worker said whenever there was children abuse report about Asian, they always try to send someone with similar culture to investigate unless it is emergency.

36个小时,她不眠不喝,带着小孩到5间医院/诊所歇斯底里的,爸爸又不闻不问,如果CAS不行动,他们真的失职。 -ontariocas(CAS); 2009-6-15 (#5344544@0)

这位大大，请问下，如果打匿名电话给CAS报料，被证实是假的，CAS有啥处罚？如果对方要求CAS提供电话信息以找报料人，CAS是否配合？ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-6-15 (#5344555@0)
唉, 很复杂, 几乎无解. 还是忍不住要说, 这个爸爸没有做到最好. 能让她听进去的只能是他了吧? 但是CAS一直追到英国也有点过分. 这个案子很多信息是一点一点透露出来的, 唉, 不多说了, 坚决不说了. -dusk(~小桥流水~); 2009-6-15 (#5344585@0)
"36个小时,她不眠不喝,带着小孩到5间医院/诊所歇斯底里的" 。谁信谁傻。 -skywriting(天书); 2009-6-15 (#5344702@0)

Well clearly the doctor in ER thinks she has problems. And that was why they notified CAS. -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-6-15 (#5344799@0)
Well, my daugther hand a fever over 104 degree and I didn't sleep for 48 hours. I believe any mother could do it if she believed her baby was critical ill. Ask any mother who have a baby! -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5344870@0)

If this is true then it would be terrible! What a poor mother! Where did you find this piece of information? -hkchan(*); 2009-6-15 (#5344848@0)
有你们CAS在.爸爸能干啥?难道主动向你们报告?难道用家庭暴力?少指责别人了.CAS就没有责任了吗? CAS在社会上有这么恶劣的IMAGE.从大的角度看,有没有责任呢? CAS能不能做得更人性化呢? -iwantcar_majia(iwantcar); 2009-6-16 {31} (#5345810@0)
CAS 的权力和费用又是哪里来的呢?

some answers. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {974} (#5345889@0)
有你们CAS在.爸爸能干啥? We are not CAS! And what could the father do without CAS?

难道主动向你们报告? Why not? If he trust CAS can protect his children.

难道用家庭暴力? I did use minium force to control a mental illness patient until police officer arrived.

少指责别人了.CAS就没有责任了吗? I didn't blame anyone including CAS. Everyone should be innocent until trial at court.

CAS在社会上有这么恶劣的IMAGE.从大的角度看,有没有责任呢? Can you please show me an objective survey that indicated CAS had a very bad image in front of public.

CAS能不能做得更人性化呢? How 人性化 you want CAS to be? I read some Rolians suggested CAS should sent a social worker to assist the family 24 hours a day or give the father allowance to stay at home. If these ideas are the main stream of our society, our government would be willing to pay for such service.

CAS 的权力和费用又是哪里来的呢? CAS is power by our legislation and is funded through our governement.

Even from the worst picture you presented here, I don't see the presence of the mother pose any risk to the child. Directing the blame to the poor father at this moment is even more despicable. -oldyou(); 2009-6-16 (#5345926@0)

You haven't answered this yet. So you think it is ok to give whatever drugs to a baby at that age? -jeffrey815(Smartiecat); 2009-6-16 (#5346333@0)

Neither I nor the victim's family has the legal obligation to answer any questions from the public. It was CAS who should have done in the first place, meanwhile it's also their responsibilities to respect the victim's privacy. -oldyou(); 2009-6-16 (#5347468@0)

不可否认，"你没有看出来RISK"和"没有RISK"是两回事。CAS说看出了RISK和"有RISK"也是两回事。由于各种原因，我们有时侯只能尽可能接近事实真相，而没办法完全还原真相。你们有分歧，又要寻求一个判断的话，需要仲裁。 -kittywhy(kittywhy); 2009-6-16 {80} (#5346811@0)
设想一下，在仲裁者面前，你们各自提出支持自己看法的事实根据. CAS和你各有哪些呢？

"她依然用流鼻血就是肺部出血等原因与对方争辩，并且情绪有些激动" We don't know how emotion she was. Since none of us was present and unless the victim's family can find other witness. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {428} (#5346853@0)
Judge may choose to believe the professional CAS worker. It is like if you go to court to defend yourself with a police officer on a traffic ticket; unless you have solid evidence, the judge would be more incline to believe evidence presented by a professional law enforcement officer.

And if CAS lawyer come to Rolia to collect evidence, they would be able to find more information that is favor the CAS worker's decision.

Whatever emotion she had the the time, they are solely outrages toward the ailing healthcare system and CAS, which had no ground that the emotion was going to turn against the child who she had been taken care of for years. -oldyou(); 2009-6-16 {242} (#5347456@0)
It's more and more likely the CAS worker and his/her supervisor took away the child in the same emotional way, or even worst, as a revenge, a way of showing their overwhelming power. Remember, they are the same human beings as anyone of us.

I guess we may have another difference. I know a few people who had mental illness before. They were all in and out of hospital a few times and one of them who is a very close relative was admitted to hospital Involuntarily. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {1262} (#5347577@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛When they recovered, they are very nice people. I know one of them when we were kids (less than 10 years old). We went to the same church and play togehter for many years. And you have no way to imagine their behaviour when they were sick.

If the mother was really mental sick; she was not the original her anymore. The original her have taken good care of the kids very well for years. But at that very moment, I am really not sure if CAS worker was wrong. I had first hand experience with mental sick people. And if you google, you would be able to find numerous news a parents killed their kids before they killed themselves. They are not themselves anymore.

If you have the time, please go to one of those seminar that Rollor organized. And ask those psycharists who are independent from CAS, if a mother who has taken care her own children for years and become so mental ill that she would hurt her kids or even kill them. Please don't take my words, and ask the experts.

Of course, I am not suggesting that there was the case for the mother when her baby was taken away. But should we blame CAS until it was proved that they were imcompetent. There were other independent witness, including police officer that could tell us the truth.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

I'm 100% sure the poor mom will recover from her situational depression should CAS haven't taken her infant at the first engagement. That's why I felt so strongly that CAS contributed to her death. -oldyou(); 2009-6-16 (#5348002@0)

I am not challenging your assumption. But if you were the CAS worker and based on your professional training, you were very sure that the mother was really out of control and might hurt her baby? What were you going to do? -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {159} (#5348077@0)
All of my friends who had mental problem, are still taking medicine but they are under control, i.e. I don't mind to go out to have a drink with them anytime.

你现在心里是不是很内疚？估计那些直接参与的人，这辈子心理不能平静了。 -pigkiller(早起的虫子); 2009-6-16 (#5346393@0)

我4月在ROLIA 上看过BLUELOVE 的帖子,当时曾想给点建议,但在怀疑,犹豫和懒散之中,悲剧这么快就发生了,有点为自己的旁观和冷血内疚.经历过婚姻失败和情绪失控等的痛苦.希望把我的故事写出来,鼓励所有的妈妈们要坚强和快乐的生活.只有妈妈快乐,孩子才会快乐! -goodmom(how can be a goodmom); 2009-6-16 {2724} (#5347440@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛我总是说"做妈妈不容易!"这可能是BLUELOVE走上不归路的原因.可以说自己多年来也经历过婚姻失败和情绪失控等的痛苦.希望把我的故事写出来,鼓励所有的妈妈们要坚强和快乐的生活.只有妈妈快乐,孩子才会快乐!

多年前由于发生家暴(EX ASSAULTED ME),当时心情极差和无助(可以说情况比BLUELOVE 还差,自己翩体伤痛,还有一个MAKETROUBLE 的EX),CAS曾经到我家探访过我的两个幼子(当时的年纪也是一个3YRS,一个不到2YRS).CAS的办事人员很NICE&HELPFUL.,她通过和孩子交流和对我的观察,认为我有能力照看好他们,没有带走他们.还REFERED不同的社工来帮助我.在社工和朋友的帮助下,我和孩子们的生活重新走上了正轨.孩子们开开心心上DAYCARE,我努力工作养家.一个典型的忙碌也快乐单亲妈妈家庭.

但因为心灵受到巨大创伤没有好好TAKE CARE和自己一直没有意识到的埋在心深处的没处理好心理问题,在2年前的家事法庭争夺孩子抚养权时又再次爆发.烦琐的法律程序和出庭,不公的判决,让我的情绪再次崩溃,我在法庭上失声痛哭,根本不知道他们在说什么,只知道不停讲"NOT FAIR",只想他们(EX,他的律师和法官)在欺负我,想杀我.我不停地和我的律师说我没犯错我,我不想上庭,我不想见到他们.我的律师由于缺乏经验,在法庭上被法官骂了,在法庭外和我一起哭.我的律师当时是实习律师曾经做过社工,她多次发邮件安慰我也不起作用.我也不信她了.她还发了一封很正规公函给我,说要是我不好好处理自己的情绪,后果要自负.我在想他们都在恐吓我.如果我在这样下去控制不了自己的情绪,出现精神问题,我的孩子就要给CAS带走了.每当我想到这里我就很害怕失去孩子,虽然我对CAS印象不错,但我很害怕失去可爱的孩子,是他们让我克服所有的困难,坚强地活着,没了他们我活着也没意义(这也是很多做妈妈的为何如此在乎孩子的原因,因为孩子是了我们生活的动力).

那段时间我除了上班强装微笑,总是背人流泪,也不敢和父母说.有时接了孩子们放学,把他们带到公园玩,看没人注意就抱着孩子哭.老大会安慰我,劝我忘记不开心的事,看POSITIVE一些,TAKE IT EASY.老二小天真无忧,总说些他们认为好笑的小孩子笑话逗我笑,看我哭笑还很有成功感.看着他们,我跟我自己说,我把他们带到这世界来,就有责任让他们活得快乐和开心.我老是这样,他们能开心吗?

我开始反省自己的问题,我知道我有很严重的情绪失控.我要想办法救我自己.我第一次的经验告诉我我要寻求别人和社区的帮助.我把自己的问题告诉我的家庭医生,父母和朋友.家庭医生REFRED我去看精神科医生,约了时间要等3-4个月.我四处找心理辅导中心和心理辅导员.我知道一定要学会好好处理自己的情绪,用正确的方式排解自己的忧虑,使自己摆脱悲观的心理.过了2个星期,打了十几个联系电话(想当初找工作也没有这么认真),亲身去和几个辅导员交谈,心理稍微平静了一点.也和其中一位辅导员定下了一个每周一次的每次一小时的心理辅导计划.就这样坚持接受了辅导员一年心理辅导,其中因为和EX的矛盾和其他大小事端的忧虑,时不常会导致情绪波动,虽然不是每次遇到问题辅导员都能帮我解决,但通过和她聊天,减轻自己的压力,她能用比较专业的方法让我平静下来,然后让自己能比较理性地去看问题和处理问题.也一直没有去看精神科医生和吃药.最记得辅导员的叮嘱"一定要好好TAKE CARE 自己, 才能照顾好孩子!"

希望王先生要好好保重自己,照顾好孩子,不用担心孩子会一天天长大的!更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

人生真的不易啊，真佩服你。 -copperbean(豆泡果之铜豌豆); 2009-6-16 (#5347465@0)
是个坚强的妈妈，值得尊重 -kingsw(Steven); 2009-6-16 (#5347481@0)
Same story. It's called situational depression. Difference was, you got a nice worker, and the victim might got a rough one. -oldyou(); 2009-6-16 (#5347492@0)

you selective blind. there was another potential difference: she was she, the other was the other. two different people. even given same worker, outcome could be different. -win(秋天的菠菜); 2009-6-16 (#5347515@0)

I'm. I'm blind to any wrong doings to the child's father and the dead. I'm sharpening my eyes in reviewing any actions taken by CAS in this tragedy. I think everyone who has compassion and understands what a government means -oldyou(); 2009-6-16 {69} (#5348013@0)
in this country should take the same position of selective blindness.

I greatly appreciate to see people like you in our community to have an eagle eye (very sharp) on organizations like CAS, police force. You would be the reason that I am comfortable with these organization. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 {100} (#5348087@0)
Please continue the hard work. I am not going to do anymore until I have a consent from the father.

it may not be the CAS worker. The credit should go to goodmom; she was able to control her emotion. If she loss control of her emotion, even her CAS worker would have to take her children away; probably gave the custody to her ex until she recoers. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5347631@0)

Thank for all the comments.The credit should go to my parents(expecially my mother),my two lovely boys, all my friends and all the social workers who gave me help. -goodmom(how can be a goodmom); 2009-6-16 (#5347745@0)

I see light and feel warm in our community. Thank for sharing your story with us. If you need help in near or remote future, please don't hestiate to drop a note on Rolia or PM me. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5348131@0)

Thanks! I will contact you, if I need help. -goodmom(how can be a goodmom); 2009-6-16 (#5348268@0)

solute -win(秋天的菠菜); 2009-6-16 (#5347510@0)
妈妈快乐,孩子才会快乐! I have been waiting for someone like you to come up to tell you story! Well done! You helped yourself and your children by positively facing the problems. You are a very BRAVE woman! I solute you as well!! -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5347610@0)
能意识到自己的问题，并能积极主动面对和改变，很不容易。你说得对，妈妈快乐坚强，才能带给孩子最大的快乐 -liuycc(影子); 2009-6-16 (#5347638@0)
Does anyone know to post this story as a new discussion thread. I think it should be on its own, instead of hiding inside another thread. A very positive story that more people shoudl read! Can system admin do it? -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5347643@0)

要求斑竹提炼出来加精。 -copperbean(豆泡果之铜豌豆); 2009-6-16 (#5347680@0)

must be my poor Chinese. What is 斑竹? and what is 加精? -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5347698@0)

poor me:) 斑竹 = 版主，加精 = 设成精华。 -copperbean(豆泡果之铜豌豆); 2009-6-16 (#5347702@0)

thanks! -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5347706@0)

agree+1 -liuycc(影子); 2009-6-16 (#5347703@0)

how can we ask 斑竹 to do it? -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5347719@0)

not sure, but always he/she notices this kind of really nice post, and give it "marks" -liuycc(影子); 2009-6-16 (#5347730@0)
咱们在这里说的斑竹都应该看到（舆论监督是ta的职责之一），等着吧。 -copperbean(豆泡果之铜豌豆); 2009-6-16 (#5347734@0)

That's why he hangs around here. I'm glad to see that he's bothered with his Liang Xin but sad to see he's still trying to intimidate the victim's family by disbursing their privacy. -oldyou(); 2009-6-16 (#5347461@0)

what is Liang Xin ? -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5347637@0)

良心 -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-6-16 (#5347649@0)

thanks. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5347695@0)

每个case肯定都有它的特殊性和普遍性，涉及到具体细节，除了当事人，恐怕外人都不能了解的很仔细。但是我觉得这里有些人说得对，因为这一个悲剧，不希望这类事件再发生，如果每个人都能做到自己力所能及的，尽管路漫漫，可是一定会有所改变和结果 -liuycc(影子); 2009-6-16 (#5347569@0)

就大家普遍concern的问题，由这个事件所引发的担心和讨论，给各区议员或者相关人士something in writing? 今天看到另外一个坐加航起诉的事情，更感觉到既然这个国家宣扬民主法制，那么我们也走法制渠道，起诉没权利，陈述我们的concern总可以吧？谁英语好，有样本可以参考？ -liuycc(影子); 2009-6-16 (#5347582@0)

can you please post the link. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5347639@0)

sorry, which link? u mean the one that sued AC, here it is -liuycc(影子); 2009-6-16 (#5347662@0)

坐加航起诉的事情 -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5347672@0)

看到了么？ -liuycc(影子); 2009-6-16 (#5347686@0)

yeah, thanks again. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5347699@0)

thanks. -hkchan(*); 2009-6-16 (#5347688@0)

@BC

some answers.

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