You are right and wrong. There are both public and private health care systems in HK. You are right that public health care system in HK are very similar to what we have in Canada. -hkchan(0) @BC省华人论坛:BC省枫下论坛 The Rolia Forum of BC

枫下茶话 / 社会 / Oldyou, I really respect your commitment and passion to our community. You really tried to get something done! -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {3043} (#5401593@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛There are things that I don't agree with you but can we just put aside our differnece and see if there is anything that we can work together.

I am not trying to be a big brother to instruct you to do anything. Your English is better than me and my Chinese is no match to you plus you know Chinese culture very well; you can do it well without me.

Before I start, I hope you can understand nothing I said previously was to try to offend you. This was never my intent. And you should know well that CAS would not pay me anything regardless what I said on this forum. And I let you to judge me later if I am really cold blood or 良心被狗吃了.

I just hope we can end this chaos and focus on something more constructive. And everyone's input is welcome. This post is not just for oldyou!

I want to start our discussion bby asking what our objective is and what we intend to achieve first? I don't know about you but I have 1 and this is to avoid similar disasters in future. On top of mine, you may want to accuse CAS for its wrong doing.

No matter if we want to avoid future disaster or find out if CAS did anything wrong, 1 thing must be done first. Collect all the missing pieces of the puzzle, we have to find out what happened; especially what happened in the clinic when the baby was taken.

We would never able to find out what happened by ourselves, not even the victim's husband. But do you think there is any chance that we can request our government to launch a public inquiry. Do you think you can approach the victim's husband to seek his consent for such public inquiry. And once he gives you the green light, you may consider to use the same petition web site for Bill 93 to collect signatutres to support the public inquiry. You can draft a letter (both Chinese and English) to our Minister of Children and post it on the web site. I would be more than happy to assist if you need my contribution. And if we are lucky to collect 10,000+ signature, then we have a much bigger momentum to draw public attention. It should not be difficult to collect 10,000 signature if everyone who partipiciated in this discussion can collect 50 signature each. And if the media find anything fishy during the inquiry, then we don't need to do anything further, the media would do all the hard works for us. And if the media finds anything solid, any evidence against CAS; believe me, some lawyer would approach the victim's husband.

It is just a rough idea, you can refine it anyway you want. But anything is better than creating chaos in this forum and consuming our effort to point finger to each others without any achievement. We would never do anything ggod to the victm's family and our community if we continue our previous pattern. Unless one of us's main objective was to creating chaos and causing trouble to our community. I don't think you are and I can tell you that wasn't me either.

Can you please think about my idea and see if there is any practical mean to get it working.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

香港大哥，可以不可以给我们BROTHER油油一个BREAK呢，他要养家活口呢，要有QUALITY TIME陪俩小油油呢，嘿嘿 -tiara(松鼠回来啦); 2009-7-8 (#5401618@0)

OK, how can I delete this thread? -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5401621@0)

不用删除了，嘿嘿，其他人可以看呀，让他们忙碌吧 -tiara(松鼠回来啦); 2009-7-8 (#5401625@0)

好主意。大家的目标都一致拉。我想这也正是大家所希望的。过去的争吵，虽然大家有些不快，但是结果是好的。拍手。 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 {289} (#5401733@0)
说服家属和写状子的任务, 如果oldyou不方便或者没时间的话，其他人方便和家属接触的，或者语言不错的，都可以试着做啊。可以把草稿贴在这里，大家帮忙改改。反正寄出去也是坛子里大家的意愿。hkchan, 你英文比较好，要不你先起个草稿吧。

很高兴，中国人还是能凝聚在一起的。呵呵。胜利在前头。大家努力阿。

My Chinese is poor so I may misunderstand the meaning of "状子". I did not propose any legal proceeding at this point. It would just a public letter to Minister of Children with 10,000 signatures to request a public inquiry. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {95} (#5401931@0)
You can send the same letter to your MPP, newspaper, TV. It is just a letter! Not a "状子"!

1万人，不多嘛。老油在超市忙活一个周末，保证就够。 -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5401948@0)

if you go to Bill 93 petition web site and see how many signature they have collected for nearly a year; then you would know why I said "it is an ongoing job". I buy you a big beer if we can achieve it before X'mas. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5401964@0)

到底加拿大是个发达完善的国家，所以没有啥好发展（改）的啦；还是加拿大是个畸形的民主国家，改个点事非常难？工会2万人，就可以主导选举；我很奇怪为什么FLG不在加拿大好好干一场～～ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5401988@0)

what is FLG? -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5401996@0)

是一个宗教组织，因为成员非常忠实他们的宗教领袖，领袖发话，全部照单办事，所以被中国政府驱逐到了外国～～最有名的万人在天安门广场练功的事件，就是这个组织了～～ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402052@0)

oh, something wheel! -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5402056@0)

呵呵，较起真来，用词是有点欠妥。 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 (#5401972@0)

No, please don't misunderstand me. I have enougn misunderstanding. I just don't want to scare away the husband. We both know how expensive a legal proceeding would cost the poor family. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {204} (#5401985@0)
Just want to make sure we communicate well with her husband and no misunderstanding! If he misunderstand it is a legal procedding and going to cost him hundred of thousand dollars, he would say no to us.

你想得真够细致，谢谢。你的想法是对的，现在他的经济状况应该很紧张，即得照顾孩子还得养家糊口，挺难的。 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 (#5402011@0)

你才明白CAS专找软柿子捏呀？这里是加拿大，讲法制的！没钱？可不能怪我不公平哟。 -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402038@0)

You are right, we have a legal system and it is very expensive. No everyone can afford it. However, Canada is also a democratic society so our ploiticans need our vote and we also have media who like to dig out the dark side of our government. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {144} (#5402055@0)
So if we can all unite and collect 10,000+ signature, we may be able to see something done. The more signature = more momentum = better chance!

^_^，要不要去联系FLG加拿大办事处，帮助解决这个签名问题？ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402066@0)

明白。所以他们家是真正地需要我们其他中国人的帮助。如果我们都熟视无睹，下一个倒霉的不知会是我们其中的哪一位呢。中国人需要团结，不能总是单打独斗，这是在异国他乡，每个人都需要他人的帮助。 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 (#5402166@0)

And I hope our petition can have signature outside Chinese community. This disaster can happen in any community. So if we really have a petition, please tell your colleauge in your office, -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {325} (#5402192@0)
ask your children to tell their classmate,

We are not just Chinese but also Canadian! We are both yellow and white, I know oldyou doesn't like this description but I really think this is what we all are! We can't just be yellow to surive in Canada. But this is off tropic. I hope he can understand it in near future.

Do you know them? -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5402040@0)

你说是loveblue的家属吗，不认识。坛子里好像有人和他熟悉，我希望我们的好意他会转告给那个丈夫的。 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 (#5402089@0)

hkchan, 知道你为什么不理解 loveblue频繁光顾急诊室以及怀疑医生的诊断吗？ -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 {1170} (#5401758@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛我没推测错的话，是因为你生活过的香港的医疗体制和加拿大很相似，而和中国大陆则是彻底的不同。

在加拿大，看专科医生必须要家庭医生的referal, 正常的需要1-2个月，甚至更长。而这一切的前提必须是在你的家庭医生花你做些检查，然后他认为有问题的前提下。或者急诊室的大夫认为你应该见专科大夫。

而在中国，患者不需要任何referal，有病直接去的就是医院的专科门诊，某种意义上说，比加拿大的急诊还快。就是说您每次看病直接见的就是专科大夫，您还有权选择您认同的专家，只需多交百八十的人民币。如果不满意，还可以换专科大夫，换医院。完全是患者自身的决定。

专科大夫和general doctor 比，对患者病情的诊断能力究竟谁强不言而喻。

作为loveblue，一个来自中国这样医疗背景的移民，她怀疑general doctor 的诊断结论，是可以理解的。

她唯一错误就是不知道加拿大的好多医院的系统是联网的，她的每一次探访都有记录的，大夫是可以随时调出来查看的。所以她后期的几次急诊，没有任何意义，没猜错的话，后几次可能什么检查都不曾给她做过。

据我所知，香港的医疗体制和加拿大很相像，看专科医生也是需要普通大夫的推荐的。你恐怕也没经历过大陆的医疗体制，所以对loveblue的行为，你自然是不可能会理解的。

仅仅是我个人的观点，如果有误，请指正。

对于你现在的提议，我感到非常高兴和佩服的。希望我们大家的努力能尽快有结果。更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

"没猜错的话，后几次可能什么检查都不曾给她做过" 你真会臆想啊....没有病的小孩医生可以通过初步检查就可以的出没有问题的结论. 难道非得X-RAY, 验血, 验尿, CT,...所有的检查都做了才可以确诊? -guanshui88(约定); 2009-7-8 (#5401785@0)
同意。加拿大大部分医生都是蒙古来的，赚钱是第一要务，能不能医好救活病人无所谓，只要按规矩不犯错就好。所以很多人得了大病，不得不回国治，否则在这里等死。 -bzdsb(hiahia); 2009-7-8 (#5401791@0)

我看你们在加拿大生活得太辛苦了，医生是蒙古医生，CAS 是狼外婆，警察还不如中国城管，生活更加不能比，简直就是一个的大农村，问题是为什么还不回去，宁可跳楼，跳桥都死不回去 -may11(May); 2009-7-8 (#5401937@0)

唉，我当初也就是说了个“随意”。你现在都鼓动大家干这个。 -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5401968@0)
如果赶明个儿，又跳了一个，千万别承认你说过这句话。 -kingsw(Steven); 2009-7-8 (#5401978@0)

在这件事上最好的判断医生是不是来自蒙古的就是，她小儿子目前的健康状况如何？是不是她所忧虑的已经实现了？ -yusheng(拜月); 2009-7-8 (#5401961@0)

的确很想知道。孩子现在好么？ -kingsw(Steven); 2009-7-8 (#5401969@0)

I hope our volunteer can find out about the children as well. Expecially the elder one with autism. He must have a very strong bonding with his mother. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5401991@0)
如果她抱着孩子一起跳楼，就没有那么多问题了，老公也解脱了 -may11(May); 2009-7-8 (#5402033@0)

你说出了很多人一直希望你说的话，谢谢！ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402058@0)
你还是歇歇吧。 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 (#5402155@0)

You are right and wrong. There are both public and private health care systems in HK. You are right that public health care system in HK are very similar to what we have in Canada. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {3084} (#5401906@0)
本文发表在 rolia.net 枫下论坛But the private health care system is similar to the health care system that you described in China. If you have $$$, you can visit every specialist and no one care.

I don't know if you agree with me but I think the key question is during victim's first encoutner with CAS, what was her emotional condition before CAS worker even showed up. I don't know about you, but if someone just show up and take my kids, I would do whatever I can do to defend my family and you would see how CRAZY I am! They have to step on my body before they can reach my children. So everything we read from her post on Rolia had no implication on her emotional condition before the counter which was the only thing matters.

This is why I have been asking if anyone know for sure the reason that CAS took the baby. If CAS worker took the baby just becasue loveblue took her baby to visit multiple hospitals / clinics, then I think CAS was seriously wrong. But IF she behaved very emotional everytime she visited doctor and CAS worker saw her emotional behaviours and concluded that her baby was in danger, then we have to understand from other witness how emotion she was before we can judge if CAS was wrong or not.

I am very happy to help if other Rolians agree because after all, not all of you share my view and opinion.

And my 2 cent opinion is we should not do anything until we get the consent from loveblue's jusband. I don't have his contact information and I can't even speak Chinese. This is why I aksed Oldyou can do this dirty job. But if he is busy, then I hope someone else can do it. But at least I hope Oldyou PM the husband's phone number to whoever is willing to contact the husband.

You may be new to this discsussion. Another reason why I asked Oldyou for help is that he already did a great job and emailed to CBC. I think we can use his email. We just need to slightly modify it, then we have something readily avaible for the petition. Regarding the Chinese version, once we finalize the English version, there would be enough big brothers/sister (including yourself) whose Chinese is good enough to translate it.

So the preparation works should not be a lot. The ongoing work is for everyone and is more demanding because I hope everyone on Rolia can collect 50 signatures, from your office, church, your children's club, your neighbourhood. No one single person can collect 10,00+ signature but all together, we may have a good chance to achieve it.

I can't guarantee anything! But if we can do it, no matter what the result is, it would always be better than we continue to point finger to each others. We just consumed our time and resources and achieved nothing.

Now, the questions remain are if you (Rolians) agree with my suggestion. I welcome for any other suggestion to make the plan better. I am not the decision maker, you all are! And once we have a decision, I hooe some of us can volunteer toapproach loveblue's huasband to get his blessing. And oldyou would be kind enough to let us use his email as blueprint.更多精彩文章及讨论，请光临枫下论坛 rolia.net

CAS进入哪个家庭应该不是单单因为看医生，根据他老公陈述，CAS社工早就进入他的家庭辅导他的大儿子，因为越来越严重，所以决定带走孩子吧 -may11(May); 2009-7-8 (#5402008@0)

不懂啦吧，那不是CAS, 是另一个组织，专门帮助发育有问题的小孩的。这是加拿大的福利之一。 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 (#5402098@0)
Do not tell false here. Please. -fairness(直言执言); 2009-7-8 (#5402391@0)

。。。。。他PM你了？ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5401814@0)

PM me? Oldyou? No! He doesn't have to PM me! If you agree with my suggestion, then we need a voluntter to apporach victim's husband and I hope oldyou can PM the husband's phone number to the volunteer. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {13} (#5401940@0)
I am no body!

I am no body! 这个啥意思？我是虚幻的？？ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5401957@0)

OK, I am not no body but just a small potatio. We all are, this is why we have to work together. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5401967@0)

你们是不是真要逼死哪个可怜父亲，用脑子想想谁应该负最大责任，如果去法庭整个事件曝光，可能又有跳楼发生 -may11(May); 2009-7-8 (#5402051@0)

I don't know about others, but I would 100% respect the husband decision regardless his reason! -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5402060@0)
加拿大就灭有干净的官司。老公得保证老婆没有买过保险，保证他们夫妻没有吵架，保证自己从来都很干净～～还是别打了～～～ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402097@0)

对拉，问下，必须一万人的签名吗？怎么签阿？需要留下个人信息吗？是不是还得把事件客观些地写出来，然后收集人在上面签名？ -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 (#5401992@0)

You can find an example from the Bill 93 petition web site. And I don't know why 10,000. It is the target number for Bill 93; so I just use the same target. It is my first time and I really don't know how much is enougn. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {73} (#5402012@0)
5,000? 10,000? 20,000? 50,000? Anyone has similar experience can share?
http://www.thepetitionsite.com/1/Ontario-Bill93
I would very much prefer to 客观些地写出来. CAS seized the baby, mother killed herslef! We want an investigation to find out why! That's all! -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {456} (#5402035@0)
But if majority of Rolians decided we should accuse CAS, it is fine for me but I would not sign on it.

If you follow my discussion, you should know my position.

We can draft a few different versionS and use Rolia survey function to decide what version we should use.

As I said I was not the decision maker. All of you are! What was the Chinese saying, I throw out a brick and you return jade. This is all I am trying to do!

CATCH MY BRICK!

呵呵，作个调查挺好，是个好主意。 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 (#5402068@0)

老陈来拟稿，送老油审定？ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402080@0)

I would prefer to modify oldyou's original email and slightly modify it. I hope oldyou can give me green light to do it first. I AM VERY LAZY! -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5402094@0)

都说HK人很实干上进。你～想证明加拿大不是一个利于人类进步的地方？ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402105@0)

I make big mistake and wasted a month! We should stay focus. nicetomeetyou kind of waked me up yesterday! What the hell I did here? A total mess! Nothing is achieved! -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5402112@0)

活活，老陈拍马的功夫还是那么了得～其实我觉得你比牛哥强。你比他实干多了。 -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402128@0)
呵呵，现在也不晚。我先谢谢你将作的努力。 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 (#5402130@0)

拍马-I know what it meants. I don't 拍马, I told truth. I was very disappointed yesteday and after 牛哥 talked to me, I really want to give up. But I asked myself the same questions, what my objective was, what I wanted to achieved a month ago. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {339} (#5402172@0)
then I found out I was totally off focus. Why did I argue with loveyou and the rest of Rolia community when we may have the same goals and objective?

We may already collected 10,000 signature now if I did the right thing a month ago when the news was still HOT! But it may take much longer time becuase the news has been cooling down.

It's not loveyou, it's oldyou~anyway, go ahead, HKchan! -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402204@0)

it is time to sleep! too tired! stupid mistake! -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5402229@0)

And I really like to have our idea cooked for a few day and once most big brothers / sisters have the chance to review it. We would have a more matured idea, then our volunteer can present our plan to the husband. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {66} (#5402107@0)
We just try to help him! We are not in a position to instruct him!
我到真觉得他俩应该联手，天衣无缝的。hkchan的细致认真，oldyou的坚韧执着，两人的英文都还不错，如果他们俩能联手，冤情定有昭雪之日！ -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 (#5402123@0)

谁做左手，谁做右手？他2人都是领袖气质，合不拢的。 -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402132@0)

我可不这么认为，以前和不拢，是因为立场不一致，现在大家目标都一致拉，怎么还会和不拢呢。况且还没开始呢，怎知后期发展结果呢。我相信他们俩配合没问题的。 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 (#5402153@0)
I am not the leader! We all are! We can make use or Rolia survey function if we have anything that cannot come to an agreement. Besides, I can't even wirte and speak Chinese nor understand your culture. So I can't be the leader! -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {295} (#5402160@0)
I just made suggestion!

But I have to say now, if I don't agree with the letter, I would not put my signature on the petition. And my position is always until we have evidence, don't accuse CAS!

I just want to find the truth first by requesting our government to lauch a public inquiry!

我们国移习惯了领导说话的。没有领导，我们啥都不是。我觉得你可以负责联络香港同胞；老油联络印巴兄弟（不好意思，得罪了）；你那牛哥也联络几个拿得出手的老白～～我们其他的就在超市堵老弱病残国移，实在不行我也到唐人街跟FLG谈谈. -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402187@0)

It is everyone's job. Once we have the petition page, put it on your MSN Live, Facebook, the signature of your personal email. For those who have a printer, print out the page and put it into your neighbours' mail box. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {186} (#5402218@0)
For those who have a business and web site, put that on your website. We ca ask the administrator of Rolia and other Canadian Chinese forum to post the web page.

Any more suggestion?

找你公司做SALES的来给大家培训下，怎么套人近乎怎么拉人下水～～这个比发垃圾邮件有效～～ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402232@0)

this is our problems, we are from 2 extremes. But I hope if oldyou have some spare time and he can put down the difference between us, the all of us may be able to do something together for the victm and our community. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 {412} (#5402144@0)
Remember, the most difficult part is to collect a lot of signature. I don't know about oldyou but I am lucky if I can collect 100 signature. This is a hard job everyone has to do it. Not oldyou, not me, not you can do it. It would have to be Rolans, our Chinese community and other communities work together.

After all, a poor mother is died! Any of you want to see another victim tomorrow?

I DON'T!

每个人可以发展其家庭成员做下线，下线再发展下线～～HKC你算术好，你来分析下，要多少时间？这事搞成了，以后苗市长都不敢欺负咱们了～～ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402156@0)

what is 下线? online? don't quite understand your post! -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5402179@0)

是个金融学术语，你都不知道？？ -ignoreme(别当真); 2009-7-8 (#5402196@0)

no way! What is it in English? -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5402222@0)

呵呵，hkchan挺能煽情的，我都热泪盈眶了。不过思路我赞同。建议另开个话题吧，具体讨论如何操作事宜的。 -goldensands(Dream); 2009-7-8 (#5402188@0)

because you feel the pain just like I feel for the poor mother. -hkchan(0); 2009-7-8 (#5402224@0)

@BC

You are right and wrong. There are both public and private health care systems in HK. You are right that public health care system in HK are very similar to what we have in Canada.

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